60-Day Club!

I'm sitting here, on my couch, slightly stunned. I was so busy taking care of my kiddo today that it hasn't really had time to sink in... it's over. The big, huge, scary event that I've been terrified of for months is now a part of my past.

The drive up to the court in Tampa was a pain. I hate Tampa. Always have. I was armed with directions and a good idea of what it should look like. I'd been there with my mom in 2005 and I'd looked at the street view on Google maps. I was set.

Except... there was a ton of construction. Nothing looked familiar. The only thing I recognized from Google was the building with the above-road walkway thing. (Luckily, this was where I needed to go.)

I called my lawyers office. Voice mail. Damnit. I called again and hit 0 instead of the extension option. The lady that answered was super nice and very helpful. She gave me some ideas of where to look for parking and, finally, I found a metered space that was open.

I pulled in without any damage to my car or the cars around me. (I'm not very confident with my parallel parking skills. Luckily, Tampa has generous spaces!) I got the stroller out, the diaper supplies out, the toys out, and finally, got my daughter situated.

When I went to Publix the other day I got lots of $1s for the various tolls. Unfortunately, I hadn't thought to get quarters. The parking meters ONLY take quarters. And it's $1.50 per HOUR! Holy cow! I had just enough for an hour and a half and crossed my fingers that it would work out. (Side note: the town I live in does not have metered parking.)

We walked the four or five blocks to the courthouse. I'm so very grateful that I've been working on my direction sense. It's normally terrible. I figured out how to get there with no problems, even though I had to detour an extra block due to a sidewalk being closed.

There wasn't any line for security. Which was awesome, because I am clueless about that kind of thing. I had to show my photo ID, empty my pockets, unload the stroller, push her through, then go back through myself, answer questions about the contents of my purse (I have an epi-pen, which apparently got flagged as they asked about it), let them examine the stroller and it's storage areas, and then recollect all my stuff.

We hit the bathroom and then headed to the courtroom. In 2005 my mom was in the room directly across from where we went, so it was a little deja-vu like. We waited in the back. The kiddo was amazing. I mean I could not have asked her to be any better than she was. I am so very proud. (Another side note: she spiked a fever of over 102 degrees last night and was still feverish this morning w/o meds. She felt okay after Motrin kicked in, but without it was miserable.)

I watched a few cases as best I could. No one was assigned a home visit from an appraiser, which surprised me as I was terrified it would happen. Apparently MDFL is appraisal-happy according to what I've read on www.bkforum.com. The trustee was respectful. He seemed to have a little less patience for people who were wishy-washy or putting on a "poor me" show. Yet when one lady genuinely bust into tears, he was very compassionate (still in a professional kinda way).

The lawyer showed up and popped his head in, called my name softly, and then helped me get the stroller out into the main area and into a conference area. Babygirl got out and shook his hand and then was silly for a few minutes. I'm so very glad we had this time because when my mom got called up she had no idea where her lawyer was; she didn't recognize her! It was very reassuring to have talked to him beforehand.

He gave me the following advice:

- Answer all questions honestly and completely. Then shut up.
- Do not offer ANY information that's not asked for.
- Speak clearly and with authority. Give short answers.

Then he told me a few questions that the trustee might ask. (There's a really great list of these somewhere on the internet... I should find it and link to it.)

Then we went back into the room. He said we should sit up front so that the trustee would more likely call us next.

We watched one case together. At one point he leaned over and whispered, "this is exactly how not to answer questions." The lady was wishy-washy about everything. "Did you read the form that explains the difference between the types of bankruptcies?" "I think so. I'm not sure. If I did I think I read it online and not a paper handout. I'm not sure."

We got called next. My daughter was very good and he was kind to her.

I handed him my FL driver's license and my SS card. He read both. "This is case number ... with filer ... ." He swore me in. "I have in front of me .... with her DL and SS card. Please state your name and address for the record."

I did.

"No creditors are present."

He looked at my paperwork. To my surprise he asked me the least questions of anyone. He didn't ask why I had filed bankruptcy or why my husband wasn't filing with me. He confirmed the car I owned and then basically asked me if the form was complete (yes, sir), had I listed all my assets (yes, sir), did I read it before signing it (yes, sir), and so forth.

The only non-everybody question he asked me was about my business. "I see here you used to have interest in a business."

"Yes, sir."

"Are there assets remaining?"

"Yes, sir. They are listed in my paperwork."

"Could you give me an idea of what kind of assets those are?"

"A massage table and some facial equipment."

"Is that all?"

"Yes, sir."

My lawyer interjected that it was a very small business and made a few other comments along the same lines. The trustee nodded at him and looked again at my petition then moved on.

"This concludes the meeting of creditors."

If my kid hadn't been with me and been slightly distracting, I would have been done in under five minutes. It probably took ten with her.

I met with the lawyer again. He told me that they (the creditors) had a certain time period to object. He said, "they can't just say, 'hey, we don't like this!' there are only a few cases they can report against you." Then he asked if I had committed fraud, transfer of assets, etc., to which I answered no. He told me that I should get my letter of discharge in approximately 90 days and wished me luck.

We stopped at a play place in St. Pete and had lunch while we were there. She was feeling pretty good (I had re-Motrined her before we got called) and had the energy to play. It probably wasn't the best mommy move, but I needed fun and she had been SO good in the courtroom.

Then we had a long drive home. It still hadn't hit me. I talked with my mom and reassured her that she hadn't even come up in the conversation. She was greatly relieved. I'm so glad that she's supportive of me; after all, she's been through this too.

So now I'm a member of the 60-day club. Woo!

More filing thoughts

I came home the other day feeling shaky and nauseated. I really wasn't ready to write about things and wanted to take a few days to process.

I think it comes down to the fact that every attorney, even if board certified in the same area, will have differing opinions based on their own experience with clients and trustees. What they both told me might be equally true. He made a good point, "it's ridiculous that how you do something is more important than the end result or the intention."

When my name was removed from my mother's account I "gave up my right to half of what was in the account on the day it was removed". Which means that I gave up quite a bit of money, and the fact that she spent it on other things doesn't mean a whole lot.

That said, they can't exactly go after her. They can, but because all that's in her account are her social security funds she's basically "judgment proof".

She should have written a check to herself for all but $20 in that account, opened a new account elsewhere, and then took my name off. I'd be "giving up" $10.

I discovered I'm under $1000, which is the FL allowed amount. (I also found out this amount was written into the state law years and years and years ago and that it's not been updated.) Prior to updating a few things on the list I was just a tad over, but now I'll be filing no asset.  Yay!

Likely they will not send someone to the house, he said, because it costs them to do so and chances are there's nothing about me that will set off the "I bet she's hiding a lot of stuff I could sell!" radar. It's not guaranteed, but he can't see why they would.

I had to claim 1/2 of everything we own jointly. It was my understanding that they could not take anything that we own jointly except up to the amount of joint debts, of which we don't have any. This is true, if they use a particular part of law that makes those items property of the marriage. He said that if I went over the $1000 then we'd invoke that, but if it's only $995, why draw attention and have it possibly challenged?

I felt like this guy was really competent. He'll be at my 341 meeting, and I feel like he'll do a good job.

I also paid the final $299, which was for the filing fee. My bankruptcy is officially 100% paid in full.

Official Retainer

Today I met with my lawyer again and officially retained him.

Lawyer Paperwork:

I signed a two-page document that clearly outlined what my lawyer was offering and at what price, what my responsibilities are, what extra work costs if above and beyond the normal bankruptcy proceeding, that all must be paid before filing, and so forth. I saw nothing disagreeable. I paid $200 out of the $1500 fee with the remainder to be paid when I turn in the packet of Chapter 7 paperwork.

Mom Advice:

The lawyer was concerned that she still has funds in her account. Becuase I could have gone in and taken money out (not that I would, but I could have), the trustee is going to think s/he can do so as well. However, since her income is solely from Social Security, which is exempt, there shouldn't be an issue. The money she received from her mother has been spent, as has her onetime tax stimulus credit that she got a few years ago.

The Process Now:

This is how the process is going to work from this point to filing:

• I have to fill out the worksheet and make an appointment to go back to the office.
• I have to gather a bunch of forms including any correspondance from creditors within the last 60 days, 6 months of bank statements, and so forth.
• The lawyer and I will spend approximately an hour going through the worksheet line-by-line.
• The paralegal will take the worksheet and put it into their computer system.
• I meet with the other lawyer (the one who will be at my 341 meeting and who is also a trustee) to go over what's been put in.
• Revisions are made if necessary.
• The lawyer presses "send" and my Chapter 7 bankruptcy petition is officially filed.

Chapter 7 Paperwork:

I was given a very large worksheet of almost 40 pages to take home. This broke down the forms that the government uses into questions that make a lot more sense are are more user friendly. A few sections were confusing. Once I got the idea of how it was laid out it was much easier.

The paperwork also gave a "double-check" list to see if the filer may have missed any accounts. This was a long list of reminder is the form of "Do you have..." questions.

One thing that I did not like about the paperwork is that the order of "Yes" and "No" check areas were reversed frequently. Sometimes the first blank was for a yes check and othertimes it was for a no check.

I filled out the worksheet based on what forms I had previously filled out and it was very fast. I'm going to go back through and complete the few missing items now. That leaves the posession list. I think I can get that done today, revise it tonight with hubby's help, and check it tomorrow.

What Can They Take?

My concern-focus has shifted over the past week or so.

I had been worried about what can they take, what's going to happen, etc. Now, as far as I'm concerned, they can have pretty much whatever they want. I just want to make sure I disclose everything and make sure that our somewhat complicated situation comes across as just that rather than as fraud, which it's not.

I'm still worried about mom's money. She's used the money for what she was saving it for and she doesn't want to spend the rest. I'm going to find a link I posted a few weeks ago that deals with our situation, write a rough draft of a letter, and have the lawyer look over it on Monday. It would be nice to have a document signed by her stating that I never had an equitable interest in the account, it was never meant to be half (or even less) mine, etc.

I'm a little disappointed in that I can't load up the car with stuff for Goodwill. Every few months I get the urge to purge and now that I'm working on our possession list it's come up again.

Revised Revised To Do list

 Change Banks


Yay! All complete except to make sure that our health insurance comes out of the correct account (mail in form for change has been sent, with plenty of time, but who knows if it will actually be processed in time) and the disability payment goes into the correct account. *crosses fingers* Everything on our end is finished, however.

1. Change Hubby's disability deposit - Pending
2. Change Hubby's paycheck direct deposit
3. Change account that life insurance comes out of
4. Change account that YMCA membership comes out of
5. Change account that Netflix comes out of
6. Change account that Paypal is linked to
7. Set up new bill pay through Landmark Bank
8. Take my name off mom's account
9. Take my name off our BOA joint account
10. Close my savings account and my checking account at BOA 

Paperwork

1. Print worksheets off internet site
2. Complete rough draft for lawyer to look over - Mostly Complete
3. Copies of tax returns (2005-current just in case)
4. Copies of closed bank account statements (6 months, just in case)
5. Copies of W-2s from hubby - Now have past four, however waiting on filing date to know which we need or need future copies
6. Copy of hubby's disability letter - Have but not in pile of Chapter 7 stuff
7. 3 months of bank statements prior to filing
1. BOA
2. Landmark
3. ING
8. Copy of Roth IRA statements - Have but not in pile of Chapter 7 paperwork
9. Possession List - In progress

Mom Assorted


Looks like I can't go any further until I talk to the attorney and find out what else she can do.

1. Prepay for cremation expenses
2. Pay off car
3. Purchase travel plane tickets for her yearly family trip 

Sadness

My mom's Neptune Society kit came via FedEx yesterday.

In it contains various contents including the urn that they provide for her to be placed in when its time.

I had been curious to examine the items to see if they're high quality... but I couldn't bring myself to do more than put the package on her recliner.

It strikes me as very, very sad. I hope I won't have to open the box for another twenty years.

Knowing all I have to do when she does finally pass is to call an 800# is comforting, however. It was a good use of her money, albeit a depressing one.

Revised To Do List

Change Banks

1. Change Hubby's disability deposit - Pending
2. Change Hubby's paycheck direct deposit
3. Change account that life insurance comes out of
4. Change account that YMCA membership comes out of
5. Change account that Netflix comes out of
6. Change account that Paypal is linked to
7. Set up new bill pay through Landmark Bank
8. Take my name off mom's account
9. Take my name off our BOA joint account
10. Close my savings account and my checking account at BOA

Paperwork

1. Print worksheets off internet site
2. Complete rough draft for lawyer to look over - Mostly Complete
3. Copies of tax returns (2005-current just in case)
4. Copies of closed bank account statements (6 months, just in case)
5. Copies of W-2s from hubby - Waiting on filing date
6. Copy of hubby's disability letter - Have but not in pile of Chapter 7 stuff
7. 3 months of bank statements prior to filing
1. BOA
2. Landmark
3. ING
8. Copy of Roth IRA statements - Have but not in pile of Chapter 7 paperwork
9. Possession List - In progress

Mom Assorted

1. Prepay for cremation expenses
2. Pay off car
3. Purchase travel plane tickets for her yearly family trip 

That wasn't as bad as I thought...

I didn't cry or get emotional. I didn't crack (too many) inappropriate jokes.

The lady who came to our house from Neptune was very respectful, established a rapport with my mom quickly, and refrained from being pushy. She was pleasant to be around.

My mom signed up.

The total was just under $2,200 and included the travelers provision.

It's quite a peace of mind to know that when the time comes all I have to do is call the 1-800 number and her body will be picked up within an hour, everything taken care of. The company has no debt, an excellent BBB rating, and holds the money she's paid in trust to guarantee it will be there when she passes. No matter where in the world she is when she passes they'll get her back to me.

And, as she said, "It has to be done anyway, and that's money you won't have to spend."

Getting Nervous

It's 2:59 and our appointment with the Neptune rep is at 3:00. I'm nervous and stressed about it. On edge waiting for the doorbell to ring. It's not a pleasant topic.

Cremation - Thus Far

Mom's "burying money" is at risk so we're trying to get her to prepay for her cremation (her choice) and then use the rest of the money to benefit her by paying off her car loan and freeing up $200/month for her to use for other stuff.

This is a summary of what I've learned so far:

- Prepaying funeral homes is not necessarily a great idea. They can go out of business, things you pay for may no longer be available (applies more to caskets than to urns) and the new models may be more expensive, etc.

- Direct cremation skips the funeral home entirely and is less expensive.

- There are a number of options for urns. Each pound of person's weight will equal one cubic inch of space, so use their weight to determine how large of an urn they need. (I believe a 10" urn holds up to 175 lbs of person?)

- Not all prepaid plans include transportation of the body, an urn, or a staff that's available 24/7. Many do not list prices online, though some do.

- There are far more creative ways to dispose of ashes than I had known about. However, we're going to keep her ashes and my father's ashes. I like the idea of the cremation reef, though. The diamond idea seems fairly shady (how do you know that you're getting your loved ones back?) but interesting.

Paid off!

My mom couldn't figure out how to log into her car loan provider so I had to assist her. One phone call to an 800# and twenty minutes later the balance was set to be paid off.

The amount was just under $7,000 which leaves about $3k in her savings and $4k in her checking.

There is a lady from Neptune Society who will meet with me either today or tomorrow about prepaid direct cremation. I estimate that will be less than $1,400. That still leaves us with a little more to benefit my mom before we file.

Why do I phrase it like that?

It doesn't make sense for her to run out and buy stuff she doesn't need. If she's going to do something or need something later anyway, then she can pay for it now, enjoy it now, and not have that expense in a few months or on a regular basis. Paying off her car frees up $200 a month that she can use in other ways.

I still feel badly about her having to do this, but I'd feel worse if the trustee decided to take it and leave her with nothing.

Apologies

I'm not necessarily ashamed at having to file bankruptcy. I feel like we should have known better, done better, done differently, but I'm not squirming about it. I do feel like I need to apologize constantly to my mom, though.

Why?

Because she has a lot of money that she needs to spend and it's because of me. She can't sit and enjoy the financial security. There's a large change the trustee will decide half that money can be used to pay off my creditors.

I've been pressuring her, lightly, to figure out what to do sooner rather than later. And I feel horrible about it. The longer she waits, though, the longer it will be until I can file. And that means that I might go from being 30 days late to 60 or 90.

Sometimes I feel like my mom will go along with things that she doesn't really want. I don't know why I feel that way. There's a line with parents between support and weak boundaries, and I don't know how to define where hers is.

When we bought a used car she helped us by buying one as well and we both got awesome deals. She needed a new car, and she didn't really care what she drove, but I still felt bad then. I don't want to take advantage of her. She's my mom.

Another relevant parent/child article

Link

Not quite my situation, but I want to remember this

Resulting Trust

Our Big Issue

Okay, yikes. This is the big one.

My mother was concerned that if something happened to her that I couldn't get to her money. She wanted to make sure I had access. So, a few years ago, she put me on her accounts.

She filed bankruptcy in 2005 after my father died. She's on a very limited fixed income (SS, and as a SAHM for most of my life, it's not much) and has scraped and saved as much as she could to come up with what she calls her "burying money".

Well, she's saved more than she needs for that. And the problem is that technically it's "my" money. My name is on it. I could write a check with it or use a check card or simply transfer it to my own account at any time.

Trustees don't care about intent. It's money that they could legally take to pay off my unsecured debt.

I will NOT screw my mom over.

I asked her if she was mad. She's not. I feel horrible. However, I did actually get some advice from the lawyer about ways to protect it.

Option 1: Open a new account, without my name, and wait a year to file.

This isn't really an option for us. If nothing else works, we'll have to make it work, but I don't see us waiting that long.

Option 2: They can't really do anything if she spends the money.

According to the lawyer they can't do anything if she decides to spend the money. If she prepays her end of life expenses, pays off her car, etc. they can't do anything about it.

I hate telling her she has to spend the money she's saved. And any money she has after that is possibly at risk, at least until our filing date. After that he said we could win the lottery and they can't touch it. The filing date is the day they go by.

I hope to do some more research and come up with some better options. I'm just not sure how that will work.

My Mom's Bankruptcy

My personal view of bankruptcy has never been a negative one. I never thought about it too much until my mom had to go through it in 2005. It was a huge relief for her and so my view became it was a good thing when it was needed.

My dad was in upper management at a local church. The visiting minister wanted to bring in his own guy and rather than have a split congregation my father bowed out. It took him a long time to find something. He sold shoes, his usual fallback job, in the meantime. A national charity hired him as their local executive director. Within a year he was laid off again due to internal changes.

He had been out of work for several months when he was diagnosed with cancer. This was late August. His health insurance was taking forever to approve his chemo and he didn't have the money to pay for the first treatment himself. I still wonder if he'd be alive today if he hadn't had to wait so long.

They started the process of bankruptcy together. He died October 9, less than a month from his 60th birthday.

My mom continued the process. We moved in with her in December and later that month I drove her to Tampa.

When we got there we checked in and were directed into one of the connecting rooms. We waited in a large room that had a table with four seats in the front. We waited for awhile. I was surprised how calm everyone was. Nervous, yes, but no one was in tears or hysterical. There were no sounds of begging and pleading coming from the front. Mostly everyone steeled themselves, went up, spent a few minutes chatting, and came back with a slightly stunned yet relieved expression on their face on the way out the door.

She was called up and her lawyer met her at the table. (Her lawyer was Melanie from Jodat.) was surprised that she didn't recognize her or that they hadn't conferenced prior. My mom spent about ten minutes answering questions. The man at the table mostly nodded, looked over her paperwork, and was very polite.

The whole process was a lot faster than I had expected. I was expecting a typical court room (I've done jury duty several times) where everything was extremely public and somewhat hostile. It was nothing like that.

Afterward Melanie talked with us for a few minutes, answered questions that my mom had and, to my surprise, answered my questions as well.

I found out that since my father had reconsolidated the Parent Plus loans he'd taken out for my college, they were forgiven and I wouldn't have to repay them. (The original loan that I cosigned was considered paid off by the new loan.) I also discovered that my mom was not responsible for my father's medical bills and could not claim them in her bankruptcy. She received far too many bills after, but she could throw them out guilt-free.

This was prior to the laws changing, so I have no idea how my court date will go, but I'm expecting something similar.

I felt bad for my mom. She had retired a month before my dad was laid off and her employer had replaced her before she left so she could train her replacement. My father was supposed to receive SS disability that was far more than what she got for her retirement, and then she got nothing from my father's.

It was a huge relief to her to not be saddled with all the debt they had accumulated. She felt stupid for not knowing about it until he was diagnosed. I remember she showed me a spreadsheet with thousands of dollars of debt. I don't recall how much it was now, but I was really impressed and surprised by the amount of debt. I know she worried about how she'd make the payments. Bankruptcy was the right choice for her.

After her discharge her lawyer touched base a few times to make sure no one was harassing her and made sure she knew that if they did to contact her. Most of the contact was thru form letters.